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wafflewaitress
post Feb 19 2007, 02:04 PM
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Well, I was just logged on here this evening and thought - 'Jesus this board is shit nowadays'..and felt the urge to post said sentiment..but then (and quite apart from the fact that it's hideously annoying when people post 'this is shit right here')..I came across a brief, but promising, back and forth betwixt the above members...I say promising, so let's see.....

Who shall be the first gentleman here to throw down his glove?...

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..Actually good sir Light, that probably is you on the left there?...


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FunkBone
post Feb 19 2007, 03:27 PM
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You may be jumping the gun here, WW. While Light does seem interested in progressing beyond casual banter, he may not have the time in his day to review the presented evidence. That is indeed part of the conspiracy - to keep us all occupied with our own role in the rat race so that the devices that manipulate the energy produced by our spinning treadmills are not easily perceptible. He must be ready to take the plunge and follow the money.
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Light
post Feb 20 2007, 05:04 AM
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Oh, I'll be happy to debate. As you say, I'm not overly endowed with a huge amount of time to spare, but that which I can I'll cheerfully devote to this. After all, any thread titled as this one is instantly appeals to my gargantuan, positively planet sized ego.

Feel free to choose the starting point, and I'll respond accordingly. Just before we do begin though, I thought I'd post something that will give you some idea of just where I'm coming from when it comes to my disdain for those who cheefully swallow either the "official line" whilst utterly denying the possibility that there may be more to it, and to those who are entirely disbelieving about the "official line" but equally cheerfully swallow whatever old shit David Icke's accountant advised him to post on his website on any given day. I've posted it before on this board's predecessor but I dunno if you've seen it. I look forward to your first post, and thanks for taking the time to do this.




Since I was a teenager, I've been fascinated with the idea of faith (and yes, I was something of a geeky teen...). At first, it was religious faith that interested me. I couldn't for the life of me understand why otherwise sensible and rational people would live their lives according to a set of principles that evolved over a thousand years ago, the lynchpin of which was a mythical father figure of who's existence there is no proof at all. I wanted to know what drove these people to their conclusion that a particular faith was best suited to them, what made them reject the alternative faiths on offer, and most of all I wanted to know whether these gullible fools would be interested in buying these magic beans I had for sale.

But as time has passed, I've thought about faith a little more (which just goes to show how boring life can be in Newcastle) and I've gradually and belatedly come to realise that faith isn't just limited to religion. We are constantly encouraged to show faith in, for example, our employers who have our best interests at heart, so have faith and don't ask too many questions about why pay rises are heading the same way as the Dodo. Or our government; Tony Blair and Dubya in particular are fond of using their opportunist religious principles to support their calls for us to have faith in them, so don't look too closely at what they're doing because it'll all work out for your benefit, honest. Unsurprisingly, we in the west are now completely cynical about having faith in anything; in general we greet whatever new soul-sapping announcement is guaranteed to make ones life that little bit less enjoyable with black humour and a wry smile. On the plus side, this means that religion no longer has the influence it once did on everyday life. On the down side, it means that we are losing the most important item of faith that we have; faith in ourselves.

Of course, I say that we're losing that aspect of faith; it has never exactly been widespread anyway. If one looks back through history, we've never really been encouraged to have any faith in ourselves as individuals. It has always suited whoever was on the top of the social heap to make us think that, in order to make anything out of our lives, we would need to rely on those in charge. The message has always been "Trust in your leaders, because if you don't then the world will turn to sloppy dogshit". We're indoctrinated with that belief and have been since the dawn of civilisation. Because of that, it is a very special person indeed who has enough faith in himself or herself to take chances in their life and follow a different path from the norm. And, human nature being what it is, those rare and precious few invariably take up a position in what could loosely be termed the ruling classes of society and become part of the same system that tries to keep people down.

Now, I'm not enough of an anarchist to follow this train of thought through to the conclusion "We need no leaders if we all have faith in ourselves". Frankly, although I think the idea that we could live in a world without leaders is a lovely one, human nature being what it is, we'd almost certainly find ourselves in a situation that closely resembled hell on earth. But on the other hand (and this is a very naive thing to say), surely having large numbers of self-confident people who are willing to think for themselves is good for society as a whole? How can it profit a government to keep the population timid and meek, accepting of their lot in life no matter how indifferent it may be?

The obvious answer is, of course, because the ruling classes are not interested in anyone other than themselves. The general populace needs to be kept fearful and paranoid in order to keep them in power? No problem; just look at the constant propaganda we see in the media telling us to be afraid of bombs and of evil terrorists. Look at the Anthrax scare in America ("No, please no! Not anthrax!! Not the disease that is easily curable by anti-biotics!! Nooooooooo!!!"), or the pointless evacuation exercise that took place in London last weekend. We would seem to faced with a contradiction; the people we elect to power to serve our interests will gladly sacrifice those interests in order to remain in power. All because we don't have enough faith in ourselves to stand up and say "Actually, I'm not happy with the way things are being done." We fear being ridiculed for doing so, and that fear and lack of faith keeps us paralysed and allows those fortunate enough to have a measure of control over their lives to extend that control over ours.

Not surprisingly, this state of affairs has led to discontent. In particular we are seeing that discontent among the people of the Islamic world, who have long been burdened with oppressive and unrepresentative governments who use religious faith as a tool for political control. To put things in perspective, I'm sat here complaining about the lack of control I am afforded in my life, but at least I am not in danger of being imprisoned by my government for doing so. Yet how is this discontent being expressed (or at least, how is the majority of that discontent being expressed)? By putting faith in organisations that remain equally unrepresentative of their supporters and have their own agenda which invariably involves replacing the current ruling classes of their society with the leadership of the organisation. This is true of Al-Quaida in all it's many and varied forms, of Hamas, of Islamic Jihad, of the ultra-violent Islamic rebels of North Africa. All of these so-called revolutionaries are equally dependant on discouraging people from having any faith in themselves, and encouraging them to believe that their problems can only be dealt with by the leaders of the organisation. In their own rather pitiful and futile way, I have no doubt that the likes of Alex Jones would love this to be the case for them (although they are almost certainly realistic enough to accept that they will never taste real power, and so instead settle for enrichment)

In abusing the trust of the very people whom they are meant to serve, governments are effectively sowing the seeds of their own destruction. We're encouraged to have faith in our leaders, but our leaders constantly lie to us and are visibly and demonstratably self-serving buckets of bullbollocks. However, thanks to centuries of being told we shouldn't rely on ourselves, we turn to organisations that encourage us to have faith in them instead, and they in turn abuse that trust to achieve their own aims. Isn't it time to stop placing all of our hopes in groups who couldn't care less about us, and only view us as a means to gain power and control over their own destiny? Isn't it time we started to think a little more of ourselves, of our own potential, and act on it? Or will we simply wait for the group of our choice to tell us that it's okay to have a little self-belief? Time will tell I suppose, but I can only hope that we start to believe in ourselves long before there is no other option.


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Light's deeply tedious blog

Everyone knows scientists insist on using complex terminology to make it harder for True Christians to refute their claims.

Deoxyribonucleic Acid, for example... sounds impressive, right? But have you ever seen what happens if you put something in acid? It dissolves! If we had all this acid in our cells, we'd all dissolve! So much for the Theory of Evolution, Check MATE!
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Light
post Feb 20 2007, 08:44 AM
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QUOTE(wafflewaitress @ Feb 19 2007, 02:04 PM) *


..Actually good sir Light, that probably is you on the left there?...


Worryingly, it does look like a similar profile to mine (blonde, skinny, prodigiously sized nose). But unless I've been sleep-duelling, it ain't me!


--------------------
Light's deeply tedious blog

Everyone knows scientists insist on using complex terminology to make it harder for True Christians to refute their claims.

Deoxyribonucleic Acid, for example... sounds impressive, right? But have you ever seen what happens if you put something in acid? It dissolves! If we had all this acid in our cells, we'd all dissolve! So much for the Theory of Evolution, Check MATE!
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FunkBone
post Feb 21 2007, 12:31 AM
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Excellent! Here we go!

MISSION STATEMENT:
To expand Light's knowledge of the inner workings of the New World Order and the conspiracy to enslave humanity.

We should start at the beginning with ancient history, but all documentation is highly debatable therefore not helpful in making points. We could start in the present connecting all currently active dots, but without the historical background the picture doesn't seem to make sense. So we will start in Nazi Germany. It was a highly documented time period and there are still surviving witnesses.

FIRST QUESTION: Would you agree that the Nazi movement was an organised conspiracy to rob the people of the world of their independence?


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Light
post Feb 21 2007, 03:39 AM
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Nope. Nazi Germany was the result of a small group of chancers taking power in a time where economic deprivation, a weak government, and national disgrace had created a people who wanted strong leadership and direction. Therefore the conditions were right for them to take power on the basis that they could provide what the German people wanted.

Did they want to conquer the world? No; the Nazis wanted Germany to be the world's dominant power in much the same way as Britain was and the US is. There's no evidence Hitler sat cackling "Soon, the world will be mine!!". His efforts to secure an alliance with Britain sort of give that away.

As to the whole Nazi movement being a conspiracy...I disagree with the definition you've used. If one applies it to National Socialism, then one can apply it to every single political movement that ever there was. What I do agree with is that they were a small group of people who sought power, in much the same way as ever leader of every group (be it social, economic, nation state or whatever) has done.


Next question please.


--------------------
Light's deeply tedious blog

Everyone knows scientists insist on using complex terminology to make it harder for True Christians to refute their claims.

Deoxyribonucleic Acid, for example... sounds impressive, right? But have you ever seen what happens if you put something in acid? It dissolves! If we had all this acid in our cells, we'd all dissolve! So much for the Theory of Evolution, Check MATE!
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FunkBone
post Feb 21 2007, 05:09 AM
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Good start! We cannot, however, move on to the next point until this one has been more thoroughly explored.

A small group indeed. Smaller than you might guess, for the whole truth is only known at the highest level. Yes Germany was in a state ripe for the political picking. The conditions were (are) caused by bankers, moves in the game of chess they are playing. Exploring the economics of it will take us down a different road. I want to focus on the religious aspect, for that was (is) the driving force behind the Nazis, who did in fact want to conquer the world. Nazi politicians, Hitler included, spoke passionately about world government at rallys, some of which are available in video form on google, as well as translated transcripts on various websites.
The following is from Wikipedia:
"Nazi mystics believed in historical Thule/Hyperborea as the ancient origin of the Aryan race. The Traditionalist School expositor Rene Guenon believed in the existence of ancient Thule on "initiatic grounds alone". According to its emblem, the Thule Society was founded in 1919. It had close links to the Deutsche Arbeiter Partei (DAP), later the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSDAP, the Nazi party). One of its three founder members was Lanz von Liebenfels (18741954). In his biography of Liebenfels ("Der Mann, der Hitler die Ideen gab", Munich 1985), the Viennese psychologist and author Dr Wilhelm Dahm wrote: "The Thule Gesellschaft name originated from mythical Thule, a Nordic equivalent of the vanished culture of Atlantis. A race of giant supermen lived in Thule, linked into the Cosmos through magical powers. They had psychic and technological energies far exceeding the technical achievements of the 20th century. This knowledge was to be put to use to save the Fatherland and create a new race of Nordic Aryan Atlanteans. A new Messiah would come forward to lead the people to this goal."
"Vril Gesellschaft (Society), or Luminous Lodge, was a secret community of occultists in pre-Nazi Berlin. The Berlin Vril Society was in fact a sort of inner circle of the Thule Society. It was also thought to be in close contact with the English group known as the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn."
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I have posted The Legend of Atlantis in the Conspiracy thread. I will not argue the truth of the story, or the truth of any other religious mythology. Whether or not the movers and shakers really were descended from Atlanteans is not important. The fact that they were operating according to that belief is. They were (are) deeply religious and take it seriously. The Occult History of the Third Reich is a topic that inspired countless books, a few of which I've read. There are too many authorities on the topic to list, but seek and ye shall find.

As for the wording of the first question, they were intended to describe not define. I found them here:
QUOTE(Light @ Feb 19 2007, 09:14 AM) *
What I've seen so far just re-inforces my current view that there is no organised conspiracy to rob the people of the world of their independence.

They are fine descriptive words no matter how you spell 'organize', and it is the Nazis to a tee. Your skepticism is understandable - most people think Raiders of the Lost Ark is a work of fiction. I need you to accept the historically documented truth of Nazi Mysticism or present evidence that this is not accurate.
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Can we move on to the next point, or am I still wrong?


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FunkBone
post Feb 21 2007, 06:14 AM
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Randy Pan
post Feb 21 2007, 08:34 AM
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A minor question here: where is your evidence that it is accurate? you seem to be basing an otherwise logical argument on some horrible suppositions. This is not a dig at you by any means, more of a cry for you to present this evidence. Also, there are some important factors you've failed to mention. For example, how can one even begin to talk about the rise of Nazi Germany without at least mentioning the social and economic impact of the Treaty Of Versailles? As for The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, they've always appeared to me as little more than a self-important gentlemans club who rely on their sense of mystique to give them power as a group, perhaps in a similar vein to the Stonemasons. Have you any evidence that this "Luminous Lodge" was little more than their German equivalent, a group of rich guys who get together to fill their empty lives with ridiculously pompous, utterly meaningless rituals, steak dinners and copious amounts of alcohol?

Sorry for interjecting, Light and Funkbone, but i do love a good debate.


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Light
post Feb 21 2007, 10:56 AM
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Not at all mate; interject away.

Anyhoo, the religious aspect of the Nazis. My understanding of it was that the attempted linking of Nazi ideaology to Atlantean myth was simply a way of giving historical legitimacy to their eugenics-based claims of being "better" than other races. Eugenics was, at the time of the rise of the Nazi party, a massively popular and widely accepted theory. Couple it with a dimly understood reading of Nietsche's ideas of a Superman, and a desire to link Christianity (many Catholics and Protestants opposed Hitler) with the hated Jews and one sees where the Nazi Racial beliefs had their roots. See here for details

So although I accept the occult element of the beliefs of certain leading lights of the Nazi Party, from the evidence I've seen, those beliefs were a means to an end (legitimising their claims of racial superiority) rather than an end in themselves. A more detailed essay partially covering that topic
This lady mentions present day neo nazis using the occult to justify their racism
An obligatory Guardian article on the subject
Finally, something on the Nazi expedition to Tibet


Himmler in particular was interested in the Occult, something I also accept. However, he was trying to create a sense of mystique around the SS. He wanted them to be an elite and feared group, and nothing does that better than ceremony and ritual. So once more, in this instance I believe the occult to have been a means to an end (give the SS a sense of being different and superior) than an end in itself.
As per this excellent essay, which also covers my previous assertion

The bankers and moneymen who allowed Hitler into power? Nothing more sinister than rich, stupid, moneyed men who believed that they could control him once he was there and maintain the status quo that kept them rich.


As to the wikipedia source...okay, this is going to seem rude, but I'm afraid I have difficulty giving credence to any argument that uses a publicly updated website, prone to the amends and edits of any random yahoo, as it's primary evidence.

You've said that they believed it (the occult) deeply; says who? What's to stop it being (as I would contend) a means to an end?

You've said they talked about world government. That's quite a long way from saying "We will govern the world". In what sense did they talk about it? Were they in favour? Were they (as I suspect) talking about some grand conspiracy of Jews to run the world? What was the exact context?


--------------------
Light's deeply tedious blog

Everyone knows scientists insist on using complex terminology to make it harder for True Christians to refute their claims.

Deoxyribonucleic Acid, for example... sounds impressive, right? But have you ever seen what happens if you put something in acid? It dissolves! If we had all this acid in our cells, we'd all dissolve! So much for the Theory of Evolution, Check MATE!
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FunkBone
post Feb 21 2007, 11:03 AM
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QUOTE(Randy Pan @ Feb 21 2007, 09:34 AM) *
A minor question here: where is your evidence that it is accurate? you seem to be basing an otherwise logical argument on some horrible suppositions.

QUOTE(FunkBone @ Feb 21 2007, 06:09 AM) *
I will not argue the truth of the story, or the truth of any other religious mythology. Whether or not the movers and shakers really were descended from Atlanteans is not important. The fact that they were operating according to that belief is.

I am not supposing anything other than that the official story is as I have described, and this is highly documented. I am willing to view evidence of an alternate story. If you have any such evidence please post that information here.
QUOTE(Light @ Feb 21 2007, 11:56 AM) *
You've said that they believed it (the occult) deeply; says who? What's to stop it being (as I would contend) a means to an end?

Are you familiar with the origin of the swastika? Are not most people who wear crucifixes generally aware of the Christian interpretation of the imagery?
The reason I used Wikipedia was not to imply that the information is true, just that it is commonly accepted. You will find the same information in World Book, Britannica or any other encyclopedia. But if they are lying it won't be edited.
Organized religion is a means to an end. That end is population control.


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Light
post Feb 21 2007, 11:09 AM
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QUOTE(FunkBone @ Feb 21 2007, 11:03 AM) *

I am not supposing anything other than that the official story is as I have described, and this is highly documented. I am willing to view evidence of an alternate story. If you have any such evidence please post that information here.



The government version of most events is highly documented, yet most conspiracy theorists choose not to believe that. Yet in this instance, you're happy to believe an "official account" without subjecting it to the same kind of critical analysis that you subject a governmental version?

This is the thing that bugs me; people who display ferocious cynicism in the face of a governmental explanation (which are, admittedly, mostly lies) then display utter credulousness when given an explanation which takes "The man is lying to you and trying to control you" as it's starting point.


--------------------
Light's deeply tedious blog

Everyone knows scientists insist on using complex terminology to make it harder for True Christians to refute their claims.

Deoxyribonucleic Acid, for example... sounds impressive, right? But have you ever seen what happens if you put something in acid? It dissolves! If we had all this acid in our cells, we'd all dissolve! So much for the Theory of Evolution, Check MATE!
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FunkBone
post Feb 21 2007, 11:36 AM
Post #13


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Who is lying to me? That is the information I need.


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Light
post Feb 21 2007, 12:07 PM
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Yes, but isn't there a much lower standard of critical analysis applied to the information which purports to tell you who is lying when compared to the standard of analysis given to the alleged lies?


--------------------
Light's deeply tedious blog

Everyone knows scientists insist on using complex terminology to make it harder for True Christians to refute their claims.

Deoxyribonucleic Acid, for example... sounds impressive, right? But have you ever seen what happens if you put something in acid? It dissolves! If we had all this acid in our cells, we'd all dissolve! So much for the Theory of Evolution, Check MATE!
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FunkBone
post Feb 21 2007, 12:35 PM
Post #15


sacrosanct
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Let's regroup here. We are not even past the first half of the first question. What we are looking for is common ground. Events we can agree on the context of. If there is a historian that exists that will downplay or deny the role of secret societies in the creation of the Nazis I need to know who that is. Otherwise we will have to assume that events occurred much as the generally accepted history portrays. Can you at least agree that the Nazis were an organised conspiracy? That would be progress.


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all of the time, I doubt your eyes would be above it"
- Drive-By Truckers

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