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Yeah...
post Apr 15 2009, 07:39 PM
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7721631.stm

So this guy is wanted for war crimes and they are trying to deport him to charge him, which I think is totally ridiculous. First problem I have with this is that I don't think the common soldier should always be held responsible. There are some exceptions but, this guy wasn't killing Jews because of his own moral values, he was killing them because the Nazi's said so. Nazi propaganda basically brainwashed the Germans to believe Jews were scum upon the earth that deserve to die. So it was the upper levels of Nazi German manipulating him to think that way. Now my friend argues that there is military conduct written in at the Geneva convention that holds the soldier responsible for following immoral orders but, in the military you are constantly trained to shut up and follow orders. Granted you are briefly taught about immoral orders, but in a Fascist country like Nazi-German, I highly doubt it was even mentioned and if you did disobey chances are you were killed. So don't blame him. Second, after 65 years don't you think that is punishment enough? He is still human, he probably see's some of those people he killed in his dreams and regrets what he has done. Finally, he is sick as a dog and deporting him would kill him anyways.
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Nedak
post Apr 15 2009, 07:48 PM
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He killed thousands (aprox:69k) of people, it doesn't matter if he was brainwashed or not.

What he did was pure evil and he should be killed for it... Put out of his own misery.


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Yeah...
post Apr 15 2009, 07:56 PM
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QUOTE(Nedak @ Apr 15 2009, 08:48 PM) *

He killed thousands (aprox:69k) of people, it doesn't matter if he was brainwashed or not.

What he did was pure evil and he should be killed for it... Put out of his own misery.


29k.
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Nedak
post Apr 15 2009, 07:59 PM
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Yes, that is like 14.5 World Trade Centers.

He killed women, children, and men... I don't care how old he is, he needs to face punishement for his crimes.

I don't care HOW brainwashed you are. Killing 29k people...

That's like saying those who were brainwashed by Charles Manson should not be held responsible.
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Yeah...
post Apr 15 2009, 08:01 PM
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But it isn't his fault for the way he was thinking. He thought he was doing right.
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Nedak
post Apr 15 2009, 08:03 PM
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So do the people that commit mass murder... so do terrorists.
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Yeah...
post Apr 15 2009, 08:06 PM
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Not necessarily, a majority do it for the hate they have for the opposing force, faction, whatever you want to call it. It is their, not someone else's.
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Nedak
post Apr 15 2009, 08:14 PM
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Yes, the Nazis had hate for Jews.. They considered them animals.
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Yeah...
post Apr 15 2009, 08:18 PM
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But for Nazi's they hated Jews for what they were told, not what they witnessed for themselves
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Jessica Rabbit
post Apr 16 2009, 08:40 AM
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QUOTE(Yeah... @ Apr 15 2009, 09:18 PM) *

But for Nazi's they hated Jews for what they were told, not what they witnessed for themselves


It may seem as if it is completely ridicoulous for them to go against their morals, but if you are ever in a situation like that, the odds will be against you for being the one person who actually does the right thing too. Not to say it isn't possible for you to do the right thing, but when manipulation is present and it is manipulation that has been carefully planned, it is really strange how quickly we will do things that conflict with who we are just because we are following orders.

How can someone be put to death for having a completely natural reaction to a manipulation situation? Put them to death because they let themselves get brainwashed? Now that is just ridiculous. The only thing you can do to prepare yourself to combat brainwashing is to learn it yourself. But jobs such as military related jobs already require a certain amount of brainwashing from the begining, so soldiers who soaked in who they were suppose to be will be exactly that.

You will see when the shit hits the fan and there are soldiers turning their guns agains their own people here.
Humans are sick.
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post Apr 16 2009, 09:37 AM
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The guy's old.

Just send him up a pier unsupervised in bad weather with a kite tied to his belt.

Let the elements decide his face.


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russetbabe
post Apr 17 2009, 04:08 AM
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Couple of points...

1. I do find it interesting that you would come onto a forum which is associated with comedians/philosophers like Bill Hicks, and support conformity. If I posted saying that it was okay to love Dane Bowers and the Jonas Brothers (whoever they might be) because everyone else had told me they were good, I would imagine you would have something to say about it.

2. People have to be responsible for their own actions. End of. You are not talking about a 'common soldier' who was just following orders. Nobody ends up in a position where they are able to inflict that kind of carnage by accident. And yes, there is a lot of brain-washing in the military - there has to be, so that soldiers can react immediately and instinctively to situations, but that does not negate personal responsibility. There is still a line at which soldiers should stop, that's why there are rules in place, such as the Geneva Convention.

3. If war criminals are not responsible for their actions, due to brain-washing and fear, then surely the same can be said for war heroes? After all, they are not thinking for themselves, they are just doing what they are told is right.
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Yeah...
post Apr 17 2009, 08:36 PM
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QUOTE(russetbabe @ Apr 17 2009, 05:08 AM) *

Couple of points...
3. If war criminals are not responsible for their actions, due to brain-washing and fear, then surely the same can be said for war heroes? After all, they are not thinking for themselves, they are just doing what they are told is right.


And that is what most war heroes say, they were just doing their job.
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BadgerBob
post Apr 18 2009, 03:07 AM
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I fucked a pigeon at the Queen's garden party. The real controversy was that I was standing on the Duke of Edinburgh's back at the time dressed as a Japanese World War 2 Prisoner of War camp commander shouting "My Pigeon's name is Princess Di" in a terrible Japanese accent. I admit it, it must have looked pretty bad, what when I threw the soggy bird in Princess Anne's face, saying "That's for fucking horses".

They let me off though when I said the voices in my head were really insistent that I did what I did, and promised that a WHOLE LOT WORSE would happen if I didn't do this one, small thing now.

Luckily they were right, as nothing really bad has happened since - TOUCH WOOD. Which proves it really.


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russetbabe
post Apr 18 2009, 08:00 AM
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QUOTE(Yeah... @ Apr 17 2009, 11:36 PM) *

And that is what most war heroes say, they were just doing their job.

Of course they do, but they get recognition because they were doing above and beyond what you would expect someone in that position to do. Because they had made a decision about the actions they were prepared to take. The same works both ways.
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