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Jessica Rabbit
post May 4 2011, 09:18 AM
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QUOTE(Light @ May 4 2011, 09:05 AM) *

And the DNA match? Because that would be proof, unless you go to the next stage of "That's not proof, I don't accept it"

Do you know, I rather think you will. Tell me, what would you consider to be sufficient proof? Rather than saying "That's not proof" to whatever gets trotted out, why don't you give us a clue?


A photo at the scene. The footage. His body in the coffin. Not unreasonable requests. Che Guevara, JFK, Sadam, Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler......all had death photos.

And DNA does not prove death. All it proves is....they have his DNA. You can be alive to take DNA.....and you can store DNA......They obviously had something to compare it with.
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Jessica Rabbit
post May 4 2011, 10:00 AM
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Reasons why proof is needed and skepticism is expected:

- Numerous intelligence professionals and heads of state have publicly stated that Obama has been dead for years and that the U.S. government was waiting to announce his death at the most politically opportune time (Albright and Reid being 2 of them).

- Osama Bin Laden was armed and funded by the CIA from 1979 onwards as a proxy to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.

- The CIA supported Bin Laden’s Al-Qaeda during the invasion of Yugoslavia and Serbia in 1999.

- Bin Laden’s right-hand man Anwar Al-Alawki was dining with top brass at the Pentagon months after 9/11.

- FBI translator Sibel Edmonds testified how Bin Laden worked for the United States all the way up until 9/11.

- The Bin Laden acolyte and Al-Qaeda member Haroon Rashid Aswat, labeled the mastermind behind the 7/7 bombings in London, was a western intelligence asset.

- Abu Qatada, the figure labeled ‘Osama bin Laden’s right hand man in Europe’, was a western intelligence asset.

- The United States is currently arming and funding Al-Qaeda to help conduct regime change in Iran.

- Western intelligence agencies bankrolled a Libyan Al-Qaeda cell controlled directly by Bin Laden to hatch a plot to kill Colonel Gaddafi in 1996.

- The United States is currently helping Bin Laden’s Al-Qaeda conduct regime change in Libya.

- Eevery shred of evidence clearly indicates that Al-Qaeda is an intelligence front for the US military-industrial complex.
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Light
post May 4 2011, 12:33 PM
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QUOTE(Jessica Rabbit @ May 4 2011, 09:18 AM) *

A photo at the scene. The footage. His body in the coffin. Not unreasonable requests. Che Guevara, JFK, Sadam, Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler......all had death photos.

And DNA does not prove death. All it proves is....they have his DNA. You can be alive to take DNA.....and you can store DNA......They obviously had something to compare it with.


I'm intrigued to know when you think they would've got his DNA if not after killing him. What's your take on that?

As to a death pic, are you saying that if such a photo is released you'd accept it as proof of his death? Not sure where you've got the notion of footage from; are you referring to that photo of Obama et al watching the whole shebang on tv? If so, you're pissing into the wind if you expect that to be released.


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Everyone knows scientists insist on using complex terminology to make it harder for True Christians to refute their claims.

Deoxyribonucleic Acid, for example... sounds impressive, right? But have you ever seen what happens if you put something in acid? It dissolves! If we had all this acid in our cells, we'd all dissolve! So much for the Theory of Evolution, Check MATE!
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Light
post May 4 2011, 12:49 PM
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Reasons why proof is needed and skepticism is expected:

- Numerous intelligence professionals and heads of state have publicly stated that Obama has been dead for years and that the U.S. government was waiting to announce his death at the most politically opportune time (Albright and Reid being 2 of them).



When did they both say that? Links please.


- Osama Bin Laden was armed and funded by the CIA from 1979 onwards as a proxy to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.


True. And? The cold war made for a long list of strange bedfellows. Are you saying that the geopolitical scene was the same in 2001 as it was in 1979-89?


- The CIA supported Bin Laden’s Al-Qaeda during the invasion of Yugoslavia and Serbia in 1999.


Don't get me wrong, this wouldn't surprise me. But could you provide links please?


- Bin Laden’s right-hand man Anwar Al-Alawki was dining with top brass at the Pentagon months after 9/11.



Evidence of that please. Preferably by means of links.


- FBI translator Sibel Edmonds testified how Bin Laden worked for the United States all the way up until 9/11.



When? If you're talking about Burnett v. Al Baraka Investment & Dev. Corp, then I'm afraid she never testified in that case. She got shut up, which I'll agree is rather shady, but that's it unless you can point me to a link that says differently.


- The Bin Laden acolyte and Al-Qaeda member, Haroon Rashid Aswat, labeled the mastermind behind the 7/7 bombings in London, was a western intelligence asset.


Again, evidence please. Links? Who said he was an intelligence asset? What was the provenance of their information?



- Abu Qatada, the figure labeled ‘Osama bin Laden’s right hand man in Europe’, was a western intelligence asset.


One more assertion from you, one more request for evidence for it from me.


- The United States is currently arming and funding Al-Qaeda to help conduct regime change in Iran.


I'm reading through all of these with a growing sense of astonishment at your demands for proof being justified by a series of unproven statements...


- Western intelligence agencies bankrolled a Libyan Al-Qaeda cell controlled directly by Bin Laden to hatch a plot to kill Colonel Gaddafi in 1996.


Evidence please, although this would not surprise me one tiny little bit.



- The United States is currently helping Bin Laden’s Al-Qaeda conduct regime change in Libya.


Literally the only people in the world saying that Al-Qaida are playing even the tiniest role in Libya are Glenn Beck and Gadaffi himself. So I call bullshit unless you have evidence to the contrary.



- Eevery shred of evidence clearly indicates that Al-Qaeda is an intelligence front for the US military-industrial complex.


Really? Every shred? With literally no dissenting facts or counterpoints at all?

Aaaaall that said, I agree with the essential point you first made: proof is needed and skepticism is entirely justified.


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Everyone knows scientists insist on using complex terminology to make it harder for True Christians to refute their claims.

Deoxyribonucleic Acid, for example... sounds impressive, right? But have you ever seen what happens if you put something in acid? It dissolves! If we had all this acid in our cells, we'd all dissolve! So much for the Theory of Evolution, Check MATE!
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Jessica Rabbit
post May 4 2011, 01:22 PM
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QUOTE(Light @ May 4 2011, 01:49 PM) *


- Numerous intelligence professionals and heads of state have publicly stated that Obama has been dead for years and that the U.S. government was waiting to announce his death at the most politically opportune time (Albright and Reid being 2 of them).



- Former CIA officer and hugely respected intelligence & foreign policy expert Robert Baer, who in 2008 when asked about Bin Laden by a radio host responded, “Of course he is dead.”
- On December 26, 2001, Fox News, citing a Pakistan Observer story, reported that the Afghan Taliban had pronounced Bin Laden dead and buried him in an unmarked grave.
- On January 18, 2002, Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf announced: “I think now, frankly, he is dead.”
- On July 17, 2002, the then-head of counterterrorism at the FBI, Dale Watson, told a conference of law enforcement officials that “I personally think he [Bin Laden] is probably not with us anymore.”
- In October 2002, Afghan President Hamid Karzai told CNN that “I would come to believe that [Bin Laden] probably is dead.
- In 2003, former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright told Fox News Channel analyst Morton Kondracke she suspected Bush knew the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden and was waiting for the most politically expedient moment to announce his capture.
- In November 2005, Senator Harry Reid revealed that he was told Osama may have died in the Pakistani earthquake of October that year.
- In February 2007, Professor Bruce Lawrence, head of Duke University’s Religious Studies program, stated that the purported video and audio tapes that were being released of Bin Laden were fake and that he was probably dead.
- On November 2, 2007, former Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto told Al-Jazeera’s David Frost that Omar Sheikh had killed Osama Bin Laden.
- In March 2009, former US foreign intelligence officer and professor of international relations at Boston University Angelo Codevilla stated: “All the evidence suggests Elvis Presley is more alive today than Osama Bin Laden.”
- In May 2009, Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari confirmed that his “counterparts in the American intelligence agencies” hadn’t heard anything from Bin Laden in seven years and confirmed “I don’t think he’s alive.”


- Osama Bin Laden was armed and funded by the CIA from 1979 onwards as a proxy to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3340101


- The CIA supported Bin Laden’s Al-Qaeda during the invasion of Yugoslavia and Serbia in 1999.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/VIN204A.html


- Bin Laden’s right-hand man Anwar Al-Alawki was dining with top brass at the Pentagon months after 9/11.



http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/awlaki.pdf

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/10/20/al-qa...entagon-months/



- FBI translator Sibel Edmonds testified how Bin Laden worked for the United States all the way up until 9/11.



http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7332


- The Bin Laden acolyte and Al-Qaeda member, Haroon Rashid Aswat, labeled the mastermind behind the 7/7 bombings in London, was a western intelligence asset.

http://infowars.net/Pages/Aug05/020805Aswat.html



- Abu Qatada, the figure labeled ‘Osama bin Laden’s right hand man in Europe’, was a western intelligence asset.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle1051304.ece


- The United States is currently arming and funding Al-Qaeda to help conduct regime change in Iran.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/may20...usesalqaeda.htm


- Western intelligence agencies bankrolled a Libyan Al-Qaeda cell controlled directly by Bin Laden to hatch a plot to kill Colonel Gaddafi in 1996.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2002/no...uk.davidshayler



- The United States is currently helping Bin Laden’s Al-Qaeda conduct regime change in Libya.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/u-s-government...inside-u-s.html



- Eevery shred of evidence clearly indicates that Al-Qaeda is an intelligence front for the US military-industrial complex.


http://www.prisonplanet.com/al-qaeda-is-a-...al-complex.html




not my research. you could have easily found this had you done a quick search.

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Light
post May 4 2011, 01:38 PM
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QUOTE(Jessica Rabbit @ May 4 2011, 01:22 PM) *

not my research. you could have easily found this had you done a quick search.


Yes, but it amused me greatly that you'd made statements without proof in support of your argument for proof. Give me a bit, I'll get back to you on the evidence you've posted. Thanks.

Oh, one more thing; have you authenticated the research in any way or have you taken it at face value? Ta.


[edit]

Right then...


- Former CIA officer and hugely respected intelligence & foreign policy expert Robert Baer, who in 2008 when asked about Bin Laden by a radio host responded, “Of course he is dead.”

Um...and his basis for saying that was? Why have you accepted it at face value when other respected intelligence and foreign policy experts have cheerfully concluded OBL was killed in the recent attack have been given short shrift by you?

- On December 26, 2001, Fox News, citing a Pakistan Observer story, reported that the Afghan Taliban had pronounced Bin Laden dead and buried him in an unmarked grave.

First you quote the Beck bullshit about Al Quaida helping bring down Gaddafi, now you're using them as a trusted news source? What was the Observer article quoted? Any idea?

- On January 18, 2002, Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf announced: “I think now, frankly, he is dead.”
- On July 17, 2002, the then-head of counterterrorism at the FBI, Dale Watson, told a conference of law enforcement officials that “I personally think he [Bin Laden] is probably not with us anymore.”
- In October 2002, Afghan President Hamid Karzai told CNN that “I would come to believe that [Bin Laden] probably is dead.


So...you're accepting the opinions of these people? I would stress the word "opinion".

- In 2003, former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright told Fox News Channel analyst Morton Kondracke she suspected Bush knew the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden and was waiting for the most politically expedient moment to announce his capture.

"Suspected". Not quite the same as how you first sold it tbh.

- In November 2005, Senator Harry Reid revealed that he was told Osama may have died in the Pakistani earthquake of October that year.

Wow. A double hearsay. In legal circles, that wins you a prize.

- In February 2007, Professor Bruce Lawrence, head of Duke University’s Religious Studies program, stated that the purported video and audio tapes that were being released of Bin Laden were fake and that he was probably dead.

I genuinely cannot believe you're accepting so many "probably's" as evidence and proof of your stated position, particularly when you're trying to cast doubt on a "definitely" statement.

- On November 2, 2007, former Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto told Al-Jazeera’s David Frost that Omar Sheikh had killed Osama Bin Laden.

I don't dispute she said that. I do dispute she provided any evidence beyond "This is what I was told". Which takes us back to a double hearsay.

- In March 2009, former US foreign intelligence officer and professor of international relations at Boston University Angelo Codevilla stated: “All the evidence suggests Elvis Presley is more alive today than Osama Bin Laden.”

I pray to Christ he didn't say it off the back of the evidence you've given me so far...

Anyway, what was the evidence he used to back that statement up? Just because he said so, doesn't mean he's released from the burden of proof.

- In May 2009, Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari confirmed that his “counterparts in the American intelligence agencies” hadn’t heard anything from Bin Laden in seven years and confirmed “I don’t think he’s alive.”

And, in the light of the Pakistan intelligence agencies being told jack shit about the attack, don't you think that sort of puts this comment into context?


- Osama Bin Laden was armed and funded by the CIA from 1979 onwards as a proxy to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3340101


Thanks for that; interesting to read a pre-2001 article about him. Doesn't answer my question about whether you think the situation when he was funded by the CIA to fight the USSR was the same as when he started coming after the US though.

- The CIA supported Bin Laden’s Al-Qaeda during the invasion of Yugoslavia and Serbia in 1999.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/VIN204A.html


Good lord, really? You're quoting me an article that takes it's information from the defence of Slobodan Milosovic? The man who happily went for full blown "Kill all the muslims" genocide? Oh, and an "anonymous source" adding the CIA into the mix? Please.

I'd hope it doesn't need making explicit, but what the hell; you can't possibly expect something said by a noted and notorious bullshit merchant to be taken seriously can you?


- Bin Laden’s right-hand man Anwar Al-Alawki was dining with top brass at the Pentagon months after 9/11



http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/awlaki.pdf

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/10/20/al-qa...entagon-months/


I can't access the second link, sorry. First one was interesting though it makes no mention of what date the dinner took place. Any further links?


- FBI translator Sibel Edmonds testified how Bin Laden worked for the United States all the way up until 9/11.



http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7332


Hmm. Damn shame she got stopped from testifying. She could be entirely genuine, she could be another David Shayler. Still, thank you for that.


- The Bin Laden acolyte and Al-Qaeda member, Haroon Rashid Aswat, labeled the mastermind behind the 7/7 bombings in London, was a western intelligence asset.

http://infowars.net/Pages/Aug05/020805Aswat.html


You can get to fuck if you think I accept Alex Jones' random, unsupported ranting as proof. Sorry. Fuck Trump, this man is the very definition of a carnival barker.

- Abu Qatada, the figure labeled ‘Osama bin Laden’s right hand man in Europe’, was a western intelligence asset.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle1051304.ece


Sorry, I can't access that link. 404 error.

- The United States is currently arming and funding Al-Qaeda to help conduct regime change in Iran.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/may20...usesalqaeda.htm


See two answers ago.


- Western intelligence agencies bankrolled a Libyan Al-Qaeda cell controlled directly by Bin Laden to hatch a plot to kill Colonel Gaddafi in 1996.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2002/no...uk.davidshayler


You do understand this is the same David Shayler who believes that there were no planes whatsoever on 9/11 (holograms and missiles apparently...) and who also declared that he was anointed the Messiah?

Jesus, I was entirely happy to believe you on this one, and you go all Shayler on my ass....



- The United States is currently helping Bin Laden’s Al-Qaeda conduct regime change in Libya.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/u-s-government...inside-u-s.html


Again with the Alex Jones. He's not exactly a model of rigorous intellectual honesty, is he? He's a blowhard; Glenn Beck in left wing clothing. It's rather depressing that people take him remotely seriously tbh.

- Eevery shred of evidence clearly indicates that Al-Qaeda is an intelligence front for the US military-industrial complex.


http://www.prisonplanet.com/al-qaeda-is-a-...al-complex.html


I think the thing that really made me point and laugh at Alex Jones was when he first presented his theory of 9/11 being an inside job based solely on the following evidence: Hitler burned the Reichstag.

It's searing insights like that which have seen him rise to a level of global respect on a par with Noam Chomsky.

No wait; he's a fringe, marginalised figure who barks at the moon in an entertaining manner and makes a living for it, isn't he? Shit...



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Light's deeply tedious blog

Everyone knows scientists insist on using complex terminology to make it harder for True Christians to refute their claims.

Deoxyribonucleic Acid, for example... sounds impressive, right? But have you ever seen what happens if you put something in acid? It dissolves! If we had all this acid in our cells, we'd all dissolve! So much for the Theory of Evolution, Check MATE!
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Jessica Rabbit
post May 4 2011, 01:45 PM
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QUOTE(Light @ May 4 2011, 02:38 PM) *

Yes, but it amused me greatly that you'd made statements without proof in support of your argument for proof. Give me a bit, I'll get back to you on the evidence you've posted. Thanks.

Oh, one more thing; have you authenticated the research in any way or have you taken it at face value? Ta.


The links did not copy and paste cause they were embedded.

This is all stuff I have known about for a long time. Hours upon hours of discussions and research over the past 5 years. It took me about 2 years to come around to the fact that 9/11 was an inside job, so no I don't just take things for face value.....hence why I question it all.
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Light
post May 4 2011, 02:12 PM
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QUOTE(Jessica Rabbit @ May 4 2011, 01:45 PM) *

The links did not copy and paste cause they were embedded.

This is all stuff I have known about for a long time. Hours upon hours of discussions and research over the past 5 years. It took me about 2 years to come around to the fact that 9/11 was an inside job, so no I don't just take things for face value.....hence why I question it all.



Okay, but how specifically did you authenticate it? Did you cross reference the (frankly rather limited) references they used to support their arguments?


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Everyone knows scientists insist on using complex terminology to make it harder for True Christians to refute their claims.

Deoxyribonucleic Acid, for example... sounds impressive, right? But have you ever seen what happens if you put something in acid? It dissolves! If we had all this acid in our cells, we'd all dissolve! So much for the Theory of Evolution, Check MATE!
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Nedak
post May 4 2011, 02:23 PM
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QUOTE(Light @ May 4 2011, 09:05 AM) *

And the DNA match? Because that would be proof, unless you go to the next stage of "That's not proof, I don't accept it"

Do you know, I rather think you will. Tell me, what would you consider to be sufficient proof? Rather than saying "That's not proof" to whatever gets trotted out, why don't you give us a clue?

They would be shouting conspiracy no matter what kind of 'proof' was given.

If Osama Bin Laden's body was displayed in front of the White House they would say it was fake. Or even if they didn't say that, they would just make up some other excuse.
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Jessica Rabbit
post May 4 2011, 02:58 PM
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Take the gov's word on things then. That seems to be proof enough.
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Jessica Rabbit
post May 4 2011, 03:00 PM
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QUOTE(Nedak @ May 4 2011, 03:23 PM) *

They would be shouting conspiracy no matter what kind of 'proof' was given.

If Osama Bin Laden's body was displayed in front of the White House they would say it was fake. Or even if they didn't say that, they would just make up some other excuse.


They aren't providing any proof though beyond statements. Thats why there is speculation. We would at least have something to discuss if there was something released.
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Nedak
post May 4 2011, 05:35 PM
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QUOTE(Jessica Rabbit @ May 4 2011, 03:58 PM) *

Take the gov's word on things then. That seems to be proof enough.

I'm not saying whether it happened or not, I'm just saying there is no sufficient evidence to prove it didn't happen.

A raid obviously happened. And because the government hasn't released a picture of Osama's dead body (which conspiracy theorists would probably call fake even if one is released) people are denying it happened.

For fuck sakes, if they wanted to cover something up they would have said that Osama was armed...

Here is an article about the other men who died in the compound:
http://www.reuters.com/subjects/bin-laden-compound

Btw, if this is faked what do you believe? That he's been dead for a while or that he's still alive?

If the answer is that he's been dead for a while, wouldn't Al-Qaeda officials try to tell the world so he can be made into a martyr?

If the answer is that he's still alive, wouldn't he release a tape saying that he is in fact alive and that our government is lying to us?
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Jessica Rabbit
post May 4 2011, 06:27 PM
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QUOTE(Nedak @ May 4 2011, 06:35 PM) *

I'm not saying whether it happened or not, I'm just saying there is no sufficient evidence to prove it didn't happen.

A raid obviously happened. And because the government hasn't released a picture of Osama's dead body (which conspiracy theorists would probably call fake even if one is released) people are denying it happened.

For fuck sakes, if they wanted to cover something up they would have said that Osama was armed...

Here is an article about the other men who died in the compound:
http://www.reuters.com/subjects/bin-laden-compound

Btw, if this is faked what do you believe? That he's been dead for a while or that he's still alive?

If the answer is that he's been dead for a while, wouldn't Al-Qaeda officials try to tell the world so he can be made into a martyr?

If the answer is that he's still alive, wouldn't he release a tape saying that he is in fact alive and that our government is lying to us?


I don't doubt there was a raid and people were killed. I think he died a long time ago. Osama was the face for terrorism, if they said he was dead in 2001 that would have changed a lot of what we did militarily. IF I believe that Al-Qaeda is CIA run, they would do whatever they need to do to keep that fear going (even if you don't, I do, so that satisfies the question for me). Osama is no longer needed, so they "killed" him on paper and in the media. If they make him into a martyr so fucking what. He is a martyr, and so is anyone else who died for the war on terror reguardless of what side you were fighting for. Don't you see how making him a martyr amps up terror? More false flag event that can be blamed on this? A war with Pakistan that can be blamed on this? If they told the truth....he died of kidney failure.....there wouldn't be any backlash from muslim extremists. Why not just lie and say you found him dead?

If they were so afraid of backlash, why even announce he's dead? Living in seclusion, you raid him, you kill him....I think it would be enough to satisfy intelligence and just keep it to yourself. Tell everyone when the war is over....or never tell anyone at all. Let everyone assume he just died in seclusion or make him into a coward. His death doesn't change anything.

For me, the truth is they jumped the gun on releasing this before they got their ducks in a row.
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Nedak
post May 5 2011, 06:32 PM
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QUOTE(Jessica Rabbit @ May 4 2011, 07:27 PM) *

If they were so afraid of backlash, why even announce he's dead? Living in seclusion, you raid him, you kill him....I think it would be enough to satisfy intelligence and just keep it to yourself. Tell everyone when the war is over....or never tell anyone at all. Let everyone assume he just died in seclusion or make him into a coward. His death doesn't change anything.


Maybe they didn't want to lie to the American people or cover anything up? Maybe they knew it looked really good politically? Maybe they knew he'd become a martyr but they felt that announce it would take the wind out of people's sales? I mean, a top Al-Qaeda official turned himself in yesterday and the Taliban are starting to distance themselves from them. Maybe they are afraid that their tops will be killed as well?


Also, Osama's daughter witnessed his death:
http://abcnews.go.com/International/osama-...ory?id=13527830

They would need her to lie as well (along with his wife).
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post May 6 2011, 06:10 PM
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holy fucking semantics war
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