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charismagician
post Mar 10 2008, 09:32 PM
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Do you really think that our air force didn't know that there were renegade planes off course and heading towards DC and NY? That FACT alone is the only thing anyone with a clue as to how advanced our military really is, needs to know. You can't fly a hangglider that close to the Capitol without scattering a bunch of F-16's. The coincidental "exercise" being spearheaded by Cheney that mimmicked the actual occurances at the same time the whole thing is going down would be the next fact. Come on, conspiraloon is a cute term for people who don't believe everything that is shoveled at them and come to conclusions based on probablility over actual "fact". the people that brought the twin towers down didn't have to be careful, they just had to be powerful. Power can sway fact, after the fact, and that's a fact. History is written by the powerful, not the winner, cuz you ain't a winner if you kill 5000 innocent people, so you can kill tens of thousands more in a foreign country.

Those buildings were coming down no matter what. There was too much to gain from it, and not by Osama Bin laden or Saddam Hussein. Call me a loon but common sense is the only thing needed in this instance. Really, has there ever been a government that didn't try this played out trick? You know, cut yourself and say someone else did it. Oldest and most used power play in the book. But lots of people buy it.


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Light
post Mar 11 2008, 02:18 AM
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I believe I covered that brand of "Heavy on anti gooberment emotiveness, light on anything remotely resembling evidence" the-gooberment-did-it-because-I-say-so approach here.


It always astonishes me that, despite the ongoing clusterfuck in Iraq and Afghanistan, not one of you loons is willing to amend your view that the military and gooberment are a hyper-efficient and super-organised gang of evil genius' (Genius? Geniuses? Genii? You know what I mean) who can second guess every thought you have.


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The Sandman
post Mar 11 2008, 03:57 PM
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After watching all these vids (Zeitgeist, Loose Change, random others), watching the MSM replays:

I personally think it was a setup job...no, none of us will ever know for sure - - but, the WTC7 magic collapse and NORAD's momentary incompetence at exactly the worst time are the one's that strike me.

I theorize that WTC7 was wired for demolition in series with the main WTC buildings, it just didn't collapse in conjunction, and fell later than planned due to a malfunction. Of course there was probably something else that was supposed to strike/destabilize the building like the planes did the main WTC buildings so it didn't look like it just happened by proxy. This would suggest that there had to be major advanced planning, security "lapses", access that no "one" rogue element could've accomplished. Can I say exactly who or what? Absolutely not, but I know who it benefitted the most with the Wiretapping, PATRIOT Act, Color Codes, etc. A perfect tactic to scare people with come election time/or when it's time to make questionable unconstitutional laws. A permanent boogeyman to scare the US with A War on "Terror" - - WTF is a War on Terror? This gives absolute power to do anything you want with one magic word. Maybe that was just a non-expected consequence of 9/11, but what a motherlode of instant power acquired - - my gut is raising a BS flag.

Of course we'll never know the truth, but I can sure tell when someone's pissing on my leg and then tells me it's raining. I enjoy conspiracy theories just for entertainment value as much as the next person, but the moment you don't at least give it some serious thought..it becomes the perfect crime. I will always "Question Authority", it's the only thing that holds the powers-that-be one step from my mental slavery.

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sunupu
post Mar 11 2008, 04:37 PM
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QUOTE(charismagician @ Mar 10 2008, 07:32 PM) *

Do you really think that our air force didn't know that there were renegade planes off course and heading towards DC and NY? That FACT alone is the only thing anyone with a clue as to how advanced our military really is, needs to know. You can't fly a hangglider that close to the Capitol without scattering a bunch of F-16's. The coincidental "exercise" being spearheaded by Cheney that mimmicked the actual occurances at the same time the whole thing is going down would be the next fact. Come on, conspiraloon is a cute term for people who don't believe everything that is shoveled at them and come to conclusions based on probablility over actual "fact". the people that brought the twin towers down didn't have to be careful, they just had to be powerful. Power can sway fact, after the fact, and that's a fact. History is written by the powerful, not the winner, cuz you ain't a winner if you kill 5000 innocent people, so you can kill tens of thousands more in a foreign country.

Those buildings were coming down no matter what. There was too much to gain from it, and not by Osama Bin laden or Saddam Hussein. Call me a loon but common sense is the only thing needed in this instance. Really, has there ever been a government that didn't try this played out trick? You know, cut yourself and say someone else did it. Oldest and most used power play in the book. But lots of people buy it.


"Has there ever been a government that didn't try this played out trick?" Seriously? Has a government ever gone to fake an attack on all national and local news networks, then perpetuated fear in order to attack not that country but another? Well, yeah, if you want to talk Nazi Germany and Stalin, but c'mon! I've said it post after post, nobody knows what happened. It's people watching Fox news arguing with people who watch the 9-11 footage over and over again to "decode the mystery". There are no facts to be found, not one source that's accredited, impartial and/or completely honest. Making the argument probability over fact is just a way to post the side you agree with more on a pedestal, nothing more.

Further more, you don't need to seedily imply Bush's political advantage to fear-mongering, since the facts already point to that fact. Yes, Bush would have benefited had he set up 9-11. Does that mean he did it? Not necessarily. Using Bush's fear-mongering tactics (which exist, fully) and using it as a leaping point is your head trailing your heart. Base it off facts, not motivations. We know what Bush could've done, give me what he did. I also think that whole probability argument is a cheap comparison to people who'd have us stay in Iraq for 100 years, just cause it's probable that civil war will break out in our absence.

Your argument is the same as other 9-11 deniers, which is why it falls. You enter the argument hot-headed, too emotionally tied in the outcome to argue correctly. It's the same reason you aren't supposed to represent yourself in a court of law, you're too attached to what's happening to help yourself. I don't say any of this with an air of superiority, at least not nearly as more than you do. I'm simply stating that your argument, your "proof of an undeniable conspiracy", has risen not on the words of any proclaimed professional but rather on a plume of anger from a thousand angry patriots. Ask yourself, is the idea of a 9-11 conspiracy so inevitable a conclusion that you would have reached it on your own? Had there not been one other who "assembled the facts" for you, would you have seen it? You'd argue yes, but why? What are you seeing that us veiled sheep cannot? I've heard your facts, your vast proof, and I still come to another conclusion. Maybe it's because I don't want it to be true as much as you do. All I know let hate twist our truth anymore than it already has, no matter how noble the intentions are or what side is lying. No generalizations, assumptions, or speculations will suffice if you're to convince anyone but yourself.


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sunupu
post Mar 11 2008, 08:03 PM
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Heh, I read this before I even saw you were talking shit about me in the other posts. That's so weird, that I'd argue with you on this, then realize you were the same guy calling me your wife in another thread. Coincidence? You be the judge!

P.S - Weirder still, even responding to those I didn't connect the dots. I was literally thinking, "Man, first that one douche is doubting 9-11 really happened, then that other guy insults me!" Then it turns out they're the same guy! Whoa! Maybe I really just don't like your thought process, I don't know how else to explain it...

P. P. S - With that being said, it's cool if the rest of you doubt 9-11, provided of course you don't act like a douche about it....


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charismagician
post Mar 11 2008, 10:34 PM
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No one knows. bullshit, someone knows. Just cuz you don't know don't mean it aint true. Least common denominator man. math is math. power is scared to lose power. power is greedy for more power. The more powerful, the more bold and blatant. cocky and arrogant doing their deeds in front of your nose and then confusing you with mystery and bullshit. I was in the military and I gaurantee that under normal circumstances, those planes would have been shot down before they got within 100 miles of DC. The military does not tolerate mistakes, that's why it's the military. So the idea that they fucked up even tho they're human, doesn't even fly with me. Come on man, do you really need to see an alien to believe in them? What about God? Bankers? Lizards? So many illusions to filter through...


I always wondered what would have happened if the towers fell completely sideways.


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The Milky Cowboy
post Mar 12 2008, 12:25 AM
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I've always wondered why this didn't recieve more attention...

Seems somewhat damning to me....Is it a hoax?....


QUOTE
Seriously? Has a government ever gone to fake an attack on all national and local news networks, then perpetuated fear in order to attack not that country but another? Well, yeah, if you want to talk Nazi Germany


I'm far from considering this proof....but I do find it interesting how many Nazis were hired on by our intelligence community after the WW2....and then there's the whole Operation Northwoods thing...which pretty much seems to show that our leaders aren't above considering such actions to achieve their goals...

I dunno....I suppose I take more of the Robert Anton Wilson perspective on it...I don't look at it as all being true...or all being false...but rather...How much of it is true?....How much is false?...


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The Milky Cowboy
post Mar 12 2008, 12:41 AM
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It seems the video links in the old thread no longer work....here's a new one...




Although this version doesn't show them losing their satellite feed a couple minutes before the building was due to fall...


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sunupu
post Mar 12 2008, 01:09 AM
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Good points all, and let me just point out that obviously when I said nobody knows, what I meant is we don't know. Obviously someone knows for sure, he's not going to explain it to us. That's why we have to speculate.

I just admit to myself the futility of trying to place that much of a government conspiracy based on what we know now. I think it's perfectly possible shit went down on 9-11, probably likely. But I DON"T KNOW. This is no Kennedy assasination, no fake moon landing. This is something that regardless of being real or not has never happened before. I will need to see proof, believe it or not. Because like the God example you used, the 9-11 conspiracy theory is either a truth or something made up to confirm man's opinions about himself. I don't care what people say about 9-11, so long as they go into the observation without emotional investment.


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The Milky Cowboy
post Mar 12 2008, 01:46 AM
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QUOTE(sunupu @ Mar 12 2008, 01:09 AM) *

I don't care what people say about 9-11, so long as they go into the observation without emotional investment.


I agree with all of what you just said more or less....but I take it one step further...I don't even care if they go into the observation with emotional investment or not...It's their emotion...they can invest it as they see fit...It doesn't mean I have to...

....and who knows?...maybe that investment will really pay off someday and I'll be kicking myself for not putting all my emotion into 9-11 conspiracy when it's was cheap....

What can I say...I've always been more of a Ben Franklin 'a penny saved is a penny earned' kind of guy when it comes to emotional investment...


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Light
post Mar 12 2008, 02:20 AM
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QUOTE(charismagician @ Mar 11 2008, 10:34 PM) *

No one knows. bullshit, someone knows. Just cuz you don't know don't mean it aint true.


You sound like a Neo-Con talking about WMD in Iraq; "Just cos we ain't found 'em, don't mean they're not there!"

Some evidence please. Something more than "What I reckon, right, is..."

QUOTE(charismagician @ Mar 11 2008, 10:34 PM) *

Least common denominator man. math is math. power is scared to lose power. power is greedy for more power. The more powerful, the more bold and blatant. cocky and arrogant doing their deeds in front of your nose and then confusing you with mystery and bullshit. I was in the military and I gaurantee that under normal circumstances, those planes would have been shot down before they got within 100 miles of DC. The military does not tolerate mistakes, that's why it's the military. So the idea that they fucked up even tho they're human, doesn't even fly with me. Come on man, do you really need to see an alien to believe in them? What about God? Bankers? Lizards? So many illusions to filter through...


I'm sorry, perhaps you've missed the endless fuck ups in Iraq? The friendly fire, the massacres of civilians, the complete and total cocksplash made of the entire country...presumably they weren't mistakes but were deliberate actions? Because "the military doesn't tolerate mistakes"?

There are indeed illusions to filter through. The illusion that the military and the gooberment are omnipotent and infallible is one of them.

QUOTE(charismagician @ Mar 11 2008, 10:34 PM) *

I always wondered what would have happened if the towers fell completely sideways.


A conspiraloon would've said Dubya made it happen that way?




Oh, and Sandman; NIST are still investigating WTC7. Not like a loon to leap to a conclusion in the absence of...well, y'know; evidence and that.

In conclusion: Conspiraloons - You need more evidence than a piss-poor "God of Gaps" argument, wishful thinking, and misrepresentation of what the evidence actually is.


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Everyone knows scientists insist on using complex terminology to make it harder for True Christians to refute their claims.

Deoxyribonucleic Acid, for example... sounds impressive, right? But have you ever seen what happens if you put something in acid? It dissolves! If we had all this acid in our cells, we'd all dissolve! So much for the Theory of Evolution, Check MATE!
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Nedak
post Mar 12 2008, 10:25 AM
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Light you make a strong argument, but I'm afraid you've lost this one.

You ask for evidence, and I have brought you multiple sources of evidence you have not yet explained. You can't disprove anything we've stated really.
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charismagician
post Mar 12 2008, 03:40 PM
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QUOTE(sunupu @ Mar 12 2008, 03:09 AM) *

I just admit to myself the futility of trying to place that much of a government conspiracy based on what we know now. I think it's perfectly possible shit went down on 9-11, probably likely. But I DON"T KNOW. This is no Kennedy assasination, no fake moon landing. This is something that regardless of being real or not has never happened before.



It HAS happened before

Oh and light, there is shitloads of provable evidence on this here site and elsewhere that points all fingers at the bush regime and beyond as being the culprets in the 9/11 happenings. The way you talk to people who believe this makes me wanna snatch your fuckin chin off your face. It seems to me that you are on both sides of this argument and that is even worse. I know the powers that be did that shit and I don't care if you believe it or not. Steel melts at what temperature? How hot does jet fuel burn? buildings that fold up neatly into a confined area. People across the ocean reporting that a building has fallen before it falls. Too many goddamn coincidences man. Take your head out of your ass and pick a fuckin side already will ya. Have a nice day!


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sunupu
post Mar 12 2008, 08:25 PM
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Oh yes, the pearl harbor conspiracy. Guess what, even if it's true (which I think most people would argue it's not) it doesn't matter, because the common non-conspiracy belief of what happened on 9-11 was that Bush ignored evidence that 9-11 was going to happen. The historic document "Bin Laden determined to attack within the U.S." is proof enough of that. So making the whole "Pearl Harbor was known beforehand" argument supports an alternate reality than the one you're trying to send. Maybe if Roosevelt laid explosives in American ships and sent automated airplanes in to get us in war, then yes, you have argued correctly. And when I say hasn't happened before, I obviously don't mean government lying to cover up truths in order to proceed on their path to glory. That's happened, ask the Indians about that shit. No, I mean this is the first documented case of major airliner jets crashing into large towers at high speeds. Have you ever heard of an expert on planes crashing into buildings? No. That's because it's an uncommon thing.

As for what side I'm on, I say I'm waiting till all the facts come out. Remember facts? They're what you're supposed to base an argument on, not your gut instinct. That's the point I make, not this wishy-washy indecisive fuck-nut opinion of 9-11 you seem to think I have. Again, I've seen Loose Change, Zeitgeist (shit, I probably spelled that wrong). Your need to write people who see what you see and still think otherwise as brainwashed masses undercuts any point you're trying to make. It's the reason we can't have a civilized opinion about the truth behind 9-11, and the same reason why I walked away from your side of the argument two years ago. You may be right or wrong, only time will show that. But your need to be right undercuts any 'evidence' you find. Let's say hypothetically, you find proof it happened exactly as it was reported, no lies. Would you accept it? Obviously you're emotionally invested in the alternate, so why would you? All I do is say look at both options, or at least don't come to the argument with a bone to pick, and you snap at me. In doing that, you simultaneously reinforce your belief while diminishing your credibility. I'd love to have a nice debate about this, no argument. Not 'cause I'm obviously such a pussy that I can't handle swears (like you say), just that I'd like, you know, order. Not a debate where I point out why I think it wasn't explosives and you call my mother a cunt. Can you even talk to someone who has a different world-view of yours without threatening them with violence? Can you base your argument on facts, or is that idea so unimaginable you want to reach through the screen and hit me?


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charismagician
post Mar 13 2008, 01:23 AM
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I believe I was talking to light. You know there are other people on this board.

You will be waiting a long time for the real truth to reach your ears. The real shit is ears only and your ears are not on the list.


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